Lydia Lunch: ‘You owe it to yourself to find pleasure.’

Lydia Lunch has always done what she wants. She has an idea, follows it, finds friends that are the right fit to help execute it, or is happy to do it herself if the situation demands it. Then she moves on to the next place ‘of pure existence’. She doesn’t limit herself with medium or form or labels. Lydia believes that pleasure and joy are the ultimate rebellion in our often difficult world.

Gimmie spoke to Lydia ahead of her Australian tour with Joseph Keckler. We talk about performance, getting paid to rage, energy, her podcast, the documentary she made on depression, of being your own lover, and who’s the daddy!

Do you ever write from a happy place?

LYDIA LUNCH: Why should I? Isn’t that for pop singers to do?

I didn’t say you should but I was wondering if you’d ever tried?

LL: No. I have written a few fiction pieces. I’m happy to be bringing spoken word to Australia this time because the stories all have a different language. I write in many different languages, as I have many different languages in my music. I’m very happy when I can express, when I can perform, the different types of language I write in.

I’ve written about 3 or 4 fiction stories, and what’s interesting is that one of them, which was published in one of my books, people thought was the only true one in the book. I’m like, what are you looking at here, people? And, by the way, Joseph Keckler and I are bringing to Australia a book that we put together of some of my and some of his pieces, and we’re self-publishing just for Australia.

There are a few more humorous pieces only because they’re so ridiculously horrible—all about relationships, sexual adventures, and a little bit about female revenge. Let’s be serious here. It needs to happen [laughs].

How do you feel when you perform?

LL: Fantastic. The thing is, I’ve brought many people to the spoken word stage for the first time, and a lot of them are horrified and never want to go back up again, especially exhibitionist male musicians, never doing that again [laughs]. It’s the most powerful place for me to be. It’s far more powerful than having three guys or a couple of women behind me. It’s what I’m meant to do. So I really feel like an evangelical. Welcome to my church. First commandment, rebellion from false virtue. It’s Sunday here—welcome to my church!

Also, no rules?

LL: First rule is there’s no rules. Exactly. See, we are very much alike.

Yes. I get you. When you perform, are you intentional with the kind of energy that you bring or the mood that you create?

LL: What’s interesting in working with Joseph Keckler is he’s so smooth, charismatic, and romantic, in a way, operatic. Of course, I tried to be a little more subtle in the beginning of what I’m bringing because I’m harsh, I’m hardcore, I’m brutarian. The material I’m bringing, I hope, has a bit more humour and has a bit more nuance. But I am what I am. Am I much different on the stage than off? Well, I have an incredible focus on the stage, and I do tend to get a bit fiery, just like any evangelist. There’s not much difference except I laugh a lot more when I’m off stage; I like when people laugh. Don’t be afraid of laughing.

How important is spontaneity in your performances?

LL: Since I started writing for spoken word, it could seem as if I’m just delivering a conversation. They’re all very scripted, but of course there’s room for spontaneity and improvisation. You never know what’s going to come out of my filthy fucking mouth.

I know that in June you’ll be turning 65; does that mean anything to you?

LL: Can you believe it? Look at me! [laughs]. I always forget how old I am. I have to look it up; like, wait a minute, get the calculator out! I used to be the baby. I was 16 in New York when I burst upon the scene.

There’s a very big difference between my generation and the one that was before us, just in terms of how we look, how we behave, how we act, how we are. I’m not stopping. When I was 21, I’m like, ‘I will live to be the oldest living woman of rage.’ I’m getting there. Somebody’s got to represent. What are you, about 35?

No, I’m 44.

LL: You see how good we look? [laughs]. Look at us!

That’s because we’ve both lived a life doing the things that we love. There’s a lot to be said for that, and following your path and being of service to people through what you do.

LL: That’s what journalism is, it’s a service to inspire people to find out about something they may or may not know. It’s one of the reasons I have my podcast, The Lydian Spin. There’s 235 episodes to expose people to other people they might not know. Also people bring me people I don’t know either, which is great to be able to present them. Right now journalism is important.

As a teenager, there were great rock magazines that were very alternative, that helped me to investigate what eventually became very important to me. Like the Stooges, the New York dolls, etcetera.

As time goes by, is there anything that you value more now?

LL: How slow my pulse is. Look, if you come out of evasive trauma, you have to learn to…

I just finished a documentary on artists, depression, anxiety, and rage. I don’t have depression or anxiety. My rage I’m paid for; I take it to the stage. A lot of artists have those things so it was important for me to make this documentary. I feel like a magnet for so many people that have it.

Making this documentary, I realised why I don’t have it. I realised that at 9 years old, when I saw a very unjust thing happening to my cousins that happened to me, I’m like, ‘Oh, this not only doesn’t happen here, this happens there; this is global, and this is a historical injustice, especially against children or women.’ That’s when I really got the impetus to do what I do.

And so then there comes a point where you’re like, it’s not enough to just survive; to not appreciate is to abuse yourself of the incredible beauty and joy, wonder and pleasure that one can have. That’s something that is very hard for people that have had trauma to understand. It’s a very important point to make: you owe it to yourself to find pleasure. It’s the first thing that’s stolen from us, especially as women—don’t do that, don’t act like that, don’t enjoy sex. Fuck you! Especially in this time when the world is on fire, when the climate is out of control, when politicians are so full of freaking shit, where there’s conflict in 174 out of 196 countries. We need to to preserve our right to a pleasurable existence.

You’ve talked about how people need to look for fulfilment within themselves and not outside themselves. You seem to have a lot of self-love…

LL: I have a lot of self-love. I’m my biggest motherfucking fan! I wish that more people could become their biggest fan because to fill the void within, only the self will suffice. If you’re looking for any outside stimulus to cure those empty pockets we have, it’s not going to happen. What don’t you like about yourself? Excuse me? Who told you not to like that? You’re all you fucking have in the end, so you better fucking like it. And if you don’t like it—change it.

You can sound any way you want. You can look any way you want. Who’s better than you to be you? You have got to be you. That’s so important for women, especially as so many teenagers are committing suicide because of being pressured by internet bullshit. We need to, especially as women and others, be taught how to love ourselves, and how to fulfil ourselves.

A big problem with a lot of women is they’re looking for this perfect other to come and complete them. Well, you know what? There might be a lot of them. So why don’t you be complete first? And then you could just dibble, dabble. I’ve had quite a few soul mates, some for 7 years. I’ve had many relationships that lasted 2 or 5 years; ending them gracefully, because it wasn’t as if I was trying to fulfil anything in myself. I wanted just the best for both. Nobody can fulfil you. That takes some deep work. Ladies, get to work! Take it from me, you got to learn to love yourself.

I talk about it in the last chapter of my book, Paradoxia. Sometimes you have to learn to become your own lover. Talk to yourself. Masturbate. Come on, ladies. Put your makeup on or whatever. Take your panties off. Whatever you want. We deserve it. We owe it to ourselves. Sisters are doing it for themselves. Come on, get with the programme.

I really admire that, the way that you create. You come up with a concept or idea. Sometimes you find people to collaborate with, sometimes you don’t. You document it, and then you go on. I find a lot of people get stuck.

LL: Not everybody has so many ideas. People might have only 1 or 2 ideas. Some people, it’s like they’re a one trick pony. But then if they do that really well, that’s what they do. I’m a functioning outside schizophrenic. This hotel houses many monsters. They all want to be heard. The concept does come first. And then who makes the most sense to do it with.

Is there any particular thread that you found in all of your collaborators?

LL: They said, ‘Yes!’ It’s interesting because I’ve worked with some powerful women: Exene Cervenka, Wanda Coleman, Karen Finley, various other women. Sylvia Black, who I’m working with, and put a lot of women on the stage, especially doing spoken word workshops.

A lot of the men I’ve worked with are really sensitive, romantic, shy men. And they don’t fear me, because why should they? I’m there to protect them, because I’m the daddy! [laughs].